Is Marketing Inherently Evil?

In 4 years of "doing YouTube" my thoughts on marketing have changed quite a bit. Is it something that's inherently bad, or can it be a tool for good? Heather joins the podcast this week to talk about some recent "revelations" I've had about the confusing world of marketing.

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 S5E07 | Series Episode 91

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Because I forgot to push the button. Hello and welcome. My name is Tom. This is the Enthusiasm Project, season five, episode seven. And with the clunkiness of that intro, can you tell that I took a week off? Because I did. And I wanted to bring that up because I really appreciate I got quite a handful of kind messages of people who were super concerned, going, like, what was happening? Why was there no episode this week? Is everything okay? Everything's totally fine. We went out of town for a few days, and the dog was really excited about it. And when we came back, I had planned to just do a podcast over the weekend. But then I also had videos to make. And honestly, I didn't really have a great podcast idea. So I kind of thought, well, if I can take this off my plate, especially since I don't have an amazing idea that's like totally ready to go right now, why choke it to life and and crank out something that's mediocre and is going to exhaust me? We'll just take the week off and then come back strong. And that's what we're doing today, which is uh a little bit different. Um basically I was coming in to record a podcast, and Heather was out eating breakfast because it's very early in the morning, and she said, What's your podcast gonna be about? And I said, It's gonna be about marketing, and she said, That sounds like fun. And I said, See, you said that sounds like fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Did I say that?

SPEAKER_01 1:49

You did. You said it's exactly like they said, That sounds fun. And that's when I said, Do you? Because I know marketing is your thing, do you want to be a part of it? And and then you said, Sure, I can. And uh, I already I was supposed to be doing something else this morning that got canceled, so I already have everything turned on. I'm already dressed and ready to go, so I was like, Well, we gotta do the video version. So thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Yeah, I just uh rolled out of bed.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

So it's okay. I'm glad you're here because uh we don't um you don't know exactly what I'm gonna be talking about, and it's something that I've been wanting to talk to you about for a long time, but I keep forgetting. Great. Because it's that important. So um I think it's I think it's gonna be interesting. It's one of those it might be one of those well, we'll get to it.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

So it has to do with marketing.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

And the main idea of it came from our mastermind group a few weeks ago. Because we were doing a mastermind class and people were talking about different things, and well, okay. Pause, pause that thought there. So the other thing that I finished this morning was turning in my what is now my third sponsored video for Artlist.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Like it's it's all finished and it's all done and it's ready to go. And this was sort of a little different because uh previously Artlist had approached me to do sponsored stuff and I said no just because I wasn't comfortable doing sponsored things. And then earlier this summer, like in May and June, they approached me again. I said yes. So I did two sponsored videos after they approached me for that. So I just did one in May, one in June, just one video a month. And then all the YouTube numbers kept going down throughout the summer. And I thought, boy, could really use a bit of money at the moment. And so I, for the first time ever reached out to them and said, Hey, uh, you want to do a small actually told them about a series of videos I'm doing where not on my Thursday uploads, but on my Monday, like every other Monday, uploading a mic review, or not a mic review, a mic comparison video. So I have all these microphones, and instead of just, hey, I'm gonna make a review about this one microphone, and then it's sort of like it's just back there again, like, well, let's take different ones and put put them side to side and head to head and see what they do. And I had pitched that idea to um to a number of people and they really liked it, so I thought, hey, this is pretty cool, we should do that. And that's um Artlist was totally on board with that, which was awesome. So I basically like got to do my idea that I want to do anyway, but they're just sponsoring it, which is great. But that was the first time I've ever reached out to a company to go, like, hey, would you sponsor a video? I've never done that before. And the reason that ties back into our mastermind is because like a month ago we had a meeting, and one of our members is named Rob, and he has a YouTube channel called DisneyBlog, or you go to Disneyblog.com, and we were talking about sort of the same sort of thing. Rob has a background in sales and marketing and stuff, and I was explaining I don't know, people pay the mastermind. I was explaining my thoughts on like uh, you know, how I feel about all that kind of stuff. And Rob said, um he said two things. I think it was like in the chat, he said, marketing doesn't have to be evil, and then in video he was like, I just have one thing to say about that, and he did like thumbs down with fart noise, and I was like, I I kind of laughed, and then I thought, well, I like Rob and I trust Rob, and Rob is a nice guy, and he's into marketing and stuff, and it really was like, okay, I think I need to re-evaluate my opinion on not so much reevaluate, it's not that it's changing, but changing my perspective on it. So essentially, going from starting a YouTube channel and feeling like, oh boy, you know, everything to do with like being salesy or doing sponsor stuff is just evil and awful, and I'll never ever do that, to like, sure, if I have to like hold my nose and do it, I'll do it from time to time if it's a good fit. To like, hey, there's probably ways to do this that are actually just totally fine for everybody. And um, maybe instead of me just sitting here twiddling my thumbs and going, like, okay, if somebody wants to approach and help out, I could actually even be proactive and it's not gonna hurt anything. So marketing might not be evil after all.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

And thank you for joining us, everybody. We'll see you next time. What's your question?

SPEAKER_01 6:34

I'm just that's what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

Oh, okay. Yeah. Um, well, here's I don't know, I don't have much to add except the thing that I would tell you is the same thing you tell me is if you don't know how it's if you didn't know how it was done before, then how would you do it your way? And I think that's the same thing with marketing. I think the reason why we have a bad taste in our mouth is because we've been, you know, exposed to the like used car salesman antics and especially online that's like very prevalent. And because, you know, I think the way that we approach our videos is like we want to make the videos that we would want to watch, and there's so much of like pride, you know, and the sense of integrity with the content that we're creating, and that goes for you know the philosophy and the approach and and all of that. And so like I can see how why the heck would you associate yourself with you know being in the same field or using the same thing as these other people that are kind of like coming off as shady, yeah. Um but really, I mean, there's marketing tactics and strategy, but you can, you know, I just like forget the word marketing and just think of like partnerships.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

You know, there's these people who want to part, like there's a way to create a situation where it's mutually beneficial for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Right. And that's what I'm trying to it's what I've tried to keep in mind. Like you only partner with certain people, it's not gonna be random VPNs or crappy mobile games that like I never play because that would be terrible. So far, on the sponsored videos I've done, I've gotten zero negative feedback, virtually zero feedback, other than a couple people who are like, Oh, I signed up for Artlist now, which is kind of the point of doing it, so that's cool. Um, which means it's fine, and you can use chapter markers on YouTube, so you can even put like, hey, here's the ad segment, skip over it.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

I think you know, and this kind of goes off of my whole like enthusiasm economy spiel, which I won't get into for this episode, but if you want to know more, I have my own podcast about that. But I think like what you have been able to do is really you know keep YouTube. You you have kept the control as a YouTuber. And I think that a majority of people who get into YouTube, they they it's like even when they quit their job, there's this feeling of like, yeah, I work for myself, I'm an independent YouTube creator, but then really you've you're you're just a freelancer, you've taken a bunch of clients in the form of YouTube, right? Yeah because YouTube pays you AdSense, and then also companies who play you pay you sponsorships or affiliates. So I think that you know, you even though you're using a similar approach, like I would say a majority of your income comes from those same sources, there's a different approach in terms of like, you know, you are actually really being careful with choosing and making sure it's in line with you. And that means saying no to a lot of things, and I I think that's like really key. It's it's very hard to turn down a couple thousand dollars over and over again.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Like that's hard, especially when it's like, well, it you know, just do a minute-long ad thing and you get several thousand dollars.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

It's so much easier. It's of course, like it's so easy, but that's the thing with branding, right? You know, which I think is a is a is different than marketing because branding is like it takes so long to to build that reputation and every single thing can contribute. And it takes years, it has taken, you know, like countless hours of you creating content to like form this brand, and it can be unfortunately like you know, snapped away with one bad video or whatever. Yeah. Um, and yeah, so I think that you know you've been able to keep to that, which is super admirable because I know it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

It's fun, and you and you were helping me too, because when I was talking about the mic review videos, like where it all store this all stemmed from was I had the idea to do these mic comparison videos, but my fear was they're not gonna be the most exciting videos because it's it's me in a controlled environment with two microphones going like which one sounds better. And I can put goofy jokes in it and I can make it look really pretty, but ultimately it's not gonna be like, Wow, what an adventure that's gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

I mean, we could like go outside. Let's do like a outside.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

But the thing is though, that's not always helpful because people are gonna buy the microphone to use in probably a similar situation to where I'm using it. So to actually make it a helpful resource, it kind of has to be that. Um, and I'm fine with that. And I even did a poll um on YouTube where like people were like, Yes, yes, I would love this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, okay, cool. And then me thinking, well, if it's not like the Thursday video, but it's a separate video, then I don't you still get the normal Thursday one that you just get the normal Thursday one, and then this can be something else. And that's when I was like, well, if it's something else, then it could be sponsored. And then that's where you said, well, the ad read could be like you could do the thing. So for the first one, I really like the way that it came out. I don't know that you haven't seen it yet, but it's funny because like halfway through the video, there's just a really big, awkwardly shaped square covering up the microphones. It looks like it's weirdly censored, like it's not even a square, it's like a weird oblong. Um, and then I'm like, well, this is the blind microphone taste test, and then like, oh, look at all this empty space down here. That's a great time to tell you about art list, and then like their logo is on the block, and then I just switch between microphones as I'm saying the stuff, which it's not even like the stuff I need to say. They're literally like, or I said like a 60-second thing, and they said, Sure, that sounds cool. Could you mention this like contest we're doing? Okay. So I just do my own thing for 60 seconds talking about it, going back and forth, and then at the end reveal which microphone is which. And it worked out great. And even if you don't need if you're not interested in the ad, you can still listen to the sound quality and make your pick on like which is so it was like a fun, it was a fun way to do it, I thought, besides me just rambling and reading like random stuff or whatever. It was like, hey, yeah, it seems like a win-win-win for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

So we'll see what people actually say about that. But um, it it even goes, yeah, this like the sponsorship thing is the most recent one, but it goes to like courses and email, just all the stuff that's always been an uphill battle for me to get over. Um, but it's like you said, the association is so funky about look, there's the washing machine making its cameo. It's it's the uphill battle of like being used to hearing people talk about products they never use, shady services, the used car sales thing, and just not wanting to be a part of that and not wanting, I still don't know where that line is of like, hey, this video's sponsored, and everyone's like, okay, cool, no big deal. But obviously, if every single thing I make has a hey, this video is sponsored thing, people are gonna get tired of that real quick. I'm gonna get tired of that real quick. So still figuring out where that line is, but ultimately, event like finally having the realization of, oh, it's not inherently evil to do that. It's a tool, it's a hammer.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Like you could build something, you could destroy something, and it's just it's like it's just awareness and creating a product or service for a specific demographic or target audience, and then like understanding how to speak to them. And like, why wouldn't you, if you have something that could be like very impactful, yeah, to someone who actually needs that thing, there's nothing wrong with that. You we want them to be able to that's your whole mission, right? Like the whole point of doing this is like to make an impact, but also make a living, you know, doing that. Yeah, exactly. And I, you know, the unfortunately, people it's the same thing with like YouTube. People who have come before us have not really painted YouTubers in in the best light. But I think that you know, what you've been able to do is you're very transparent, and that's a thing that is hard for companies. Um, but for us, like we're so we're so transparent. We are, you know, yeah. The way that we talk on camera is the same way that we talk off-camera. Does that make sense? On camera, off camera?

SPEAKER_01 15:00

It's all the same, it's all the same.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

And there's no like, you know, what do we say publicly and privately or anything like that?

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Here's what I really think.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

Yeah. And I think that, you know, we've been so open about that, which um unfortunately people don't have the freedom to do sometimes. So I I get like where you're coming from, but um, you know, I think that what's also cool is the culture is evolving where people understand like I know it can be super annoying when people are like, Oh, here's another sponsor video, another sponsor video, another sponsor video video. But I also do think that like consumers in general are understanding that okay, this is how these creators are also businesses, like this is how they make their money because obviously it's like we can't if you want to if you like this, like we can't just keep doing it for free, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Well, so tell me how you think how you feel about this. We talked about this a while ago because every every so often I will tell you about a Reddit thread that I read and Reddit on Reddit.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Reddit, Reddit on Reddit.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

And one of the things that pops up regularly is YouTube because my what I typically do is at night when we're falling asleep, if I need to put myself to sleep, I either read a book or I read Ask Reddit. Uh it just depends on what mood I'm in. And a lot of times Ask Reddit, because I get through like four questions and I just fall asleep. Um, but it's it's a whole subreddit of just random questions. So it's it's everything, you know, from like what movie has a huge plot hole that's always bothered you, to like, you know, what is the meaning of life and everything in between. And anytime YouTube gets brought up on anything, I can look and here's the question, whatever it might be. Like, uh, what was the best period of time on YouTube? What's your favorite YouTube? Whatever the question might be. And you see that there's a lot of replies because YouTube is a popular thing that people use. And you go into the replies, and it always goes into a talk about ads. And then people doing like their mock ad reads, like, hey guys, what's up? It's your boy here. Don't forget to smash that like button. All right, let's get into it. But before that, let me tell you about my new merch drop without further ado. But don't forget one more time, and like, you know, it's really funny, like the fake scripts that they write and share there. Um, but then it it's like I've seen this happen literally dozens of times, like as in multiple dozens of times. I've read the same exchange, where then people will complain about ads. There's so many ads on YouTube, blah blah blah. And then someone will say, Well, YouTube doesn't put the ads on the videos, usually, it's the creators are the ones that put the ads on their videos. And then people will say, Well, they shouldn't do that, and someone else will say, Well, they they need to get paid, and it goes into nobody told them that this needed to be their job. Why do they need to get paid? They could just do this for fun and have a regular job like a normal person, and it goes into this whole like this whole thing where people go in that direction of like, sure, yeah, I guess creators need to get paid, but who told them? Like, they decided they wanted to take this thing that the rest of us are doing for fun and entertainment, make it their job, and now we have to pay them because they decided they want to do that, and it gets very like hostile and mean. I know it's hard to believe that something on the internet would get critical and hostile, but it does, and it just and that's usually where I just stop reading. Um how do you feel about that discussion of like because what you just said was that thing of like, well, we're doing the stuff, we're putting it out there, like you know, it gotta get paid so you can keep doing it, versus people who are like, Well, do you have to get paid? Why can't this just be a hobby that makes no money?

SPEAKER_00 18:43

I'm trying to think of like an analogy, but I I know there I know there's an analogy, I just can't think of it right now, but like the way that I would say it is people who complain about that are just straight up trolls because 100% put them in the same position and it's like you know you do the same thing, bro, and also get YouTube premium and move on with your life. Right. Like it's it's a di I the analogy I was like trying to come up with is like you know it's like okay, so with marketing, a very key component is that you have it's not marketing if you're not actually refining a message for a specific person, right? Because if you're just saying a message and just spreading it to everybody, like there's people who are going to hate on it, feel like it's irrelevant, think it's dumb, blah blah blah. And then there's you should use the same exact message to the right person, they're like, Oh my gosh, this is life-changing. This is the thing that I need. And and that's what I feel like those people are.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

It's a it's a very like, you know, weird, I don't know, it's just like a weird part of YouTube where I'm like, why is this I I've never I've seen that on Twitter, and I see how you would see that on Reddit, but like no one in our community would ever, ever say something like that or even think like Yeah, well once people are in it, but it it reminds me you and I were talking a while ago, and you had said something about uh how I forget, I forget exactly what it was brought up, but it was basically we were talking about since so many people start YouTube as a hobby, yeah, and then it turns into something that it's easy to then not value it or to not realize it has value, or you know, it's hard for someone to say, like, yeah, I'll do a sponsored thing for this this rate here, or I'm gonna there we know people who charge companies to not just get paid to do the review, but like even feature a product. So even if it's not like a sponsored thing, but where sometimes you know, if Rode sends me a microphone, I'm like, oh Rhodes sent me this, talk about it, even though I don't have to say anything, they'll say, like, yeah, we'll do that, but you still have to pay me to even include the thing at all. And then there's other people who are who are, you know, they will bend over backwards to get a free phone charger or something, just so they can include it on their channel. And as it goes, as time goes on, it it's hard for I I imagine it would be hard for companies to go like, well, here's two YouTube creators, you're thousands of dollars, you're free. Like it's hard for there to be like it you almost automatically devalue yourself because of the either the lack of experience, a lack of knowledge, or because you can do it as a hobby for fun and not need to do anything with it, and then it it's sort of like this weird thing. I don't know if you remember us having that conversation, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Um I I do, and and you know, it kind of goes off of the discussion of like I think it was in the research of the passion economy enthusiasm economy because everyone starts off as like, oh, this is a funsies thing. Um, but like every artist starts out with like a funsies thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Right. You just pick up some paper and start sketching.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Exactly, and then you can be the next whatever. So, you know, I don't know, it's just I feel like the people who complain about YouTube creators or like YouTube ads are like also the same people who like don't have YouTube premium. Which okay, I didn't have YouTube Premium for a lot or for a long time, but it's like you're sharing Netflix passwords and like you know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

YouTube premium totally worth it. Just yeah, like I don't know. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

If you watch YouTube a lot, then why don't you just it's the same as paying for any other subscription service.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

I probably get more value. This sounds like a commercial not sponsored by YouTube Premium, but I probably get more value out of that because I use it more than the other stuff.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Because like is it the YouTube ads that bother you or like the sponsored ads? Because that's different because you you I actually like seeing the creativity with like how creators do ads. Yeah there's cool and maybe it's because I don't watch a lot of creators who like do sponsored videos all the time. You know, so it doesn't bother me as much.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

Um yeah I think I mean I think people dislike I think it's both people dislike YouTube ads and people people make fun of YouTubers saying this video is sponsored by so and so and and I get it because a lot of times it's pure garbage. It's here's some really crappy Bluetooth headphones but you know this company paid 80 YouTubers to make the same ad at the same time here's a bad mobile game here's a weird VPN service you don't need like right and the approach there is like look if a company is paying you s purely for the exposure of like we just need content we just need views we just need eyeballs on the the product then like you know I I don't want that to be my boss.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

Like I wouldn't say yes to something like that. But if it's like oh no the company is approaching you because you know they appreciate your perspective you're not if they're approach if they're approaching the partnership with like you're not just a creator but you're Tom Buck, the YouTube channel then that's you know that's different because it's like they know there's a perspective there that is what they are paying for. Like that's the value.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

It's not how many views is this gonna get how many subscribers is the channel have you know that's a exposure is it's like it's basically like oh where's your billboard it's just old school yeah marketing of like how many eyeballs are on this TV show.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

This is our ad rate for the commercial spot during the show yeah but then like if you are you know um I don't know like you're hosting a local event with a bunch of enthusiasts are excited about cameras like yeah even though it's not located in Times Square that's that's like the target audience to talk to.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Um and basically the person who's complaining about YouTube ads is literally complaining like so can you make the same complaint about how Timesquare is just covered in billboards.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Right. What is that? Like just don't go don't I think well I think the thing that bothers me is because you're 100% right that people who are in whether or not they do ads or don't do ads or whatever uh they're at least more aware of it. Because I've never heard of someone who runs a YouTube channel being critical in that way of somebody else who runs a YouTube because exactly regardless of the difference of opinion. But I still I recognize that probably the majority not the majority but a lot of people I don't know the majority of YouTube viewers probably aren't YouTube creators also. Oh yeah yeah of course yeah so they don't so just something the same way you would get annoyed by TV commercials like God there's so many commercials and the TV station's gonna be over here going like yeah we kind of want to stay in business and like get paychecks and stuff so we need commercials.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Um yeah but it's like I just feel like are we seriously still at the point where people don't understand that YouTube is what is what dictates the ads that go in front of your videos.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Oh people do not understand that at all people do not because I mean go literally right now if you go to team YouTube there you're gonna see responses that are like you sure those people are not like 15 year olds. Oh I don't know who they are but I mean see so I don't know I I would be okay here poll your audience if you're like you know 30s and above do you understand that that's YouTube that's YouTube's monetization not YouTube monetization but the way that YouTube makes money I think there's a I think there's a slim line of people who know that like yeah it's which is why it's really funny because just yesterday I saw someone complaining to team YouTube on Twitter. I forget what the ad was but it was something kind of risque for like a weird as like a Trojan brand thing or something and then team YouTube's reply was like the ads on the ads that you're seeing are usually dictated by your web behavior. It's like which is really funny because that's why like you know I'll see ad for camera gear and you see ad for like I'm not familiar with how YouTube ads works but I I've done Google ads and I think it's all through them and then I've done Facebook ads like I'm more experienced there and the targeting is crazy.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

It's totally based on like you know it's based on your footprint on the internet.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Yeah. Someone in this not even just age race that kind of stuff but someone who like has an iPhone that they're likely to upgrade grade the next three months on the west coast of the United States who watches videos during the weekdays on Wednesdays and Thursdays. Who watches these YouTube channels these specific channels yeah it's it's crazy. And that's where like I still have the icky feeling I get but it that's where marketing is a broad term and I have the icky feeling of like where everybody is just being used and all everything's being manipulated.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

But like you said if you throw out the term that you're used to and you just go to like well here is a brand that wants to support what you do and yeah but not even to take it this way pretend you're the brand right not pretend but this is really what's happening you're the brand and you're telling everybody about your new favorite toy the roadcaster and now literally everyone I would be willing to bet 90% of people in the world have a roadcaster because of Tom Buck. That would be road but my point is like that is marketing.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Yeah that was marketing and that's that's based on enthusiasm because n I've never made a sponsored roadcaster video ever.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Exactly it's it's all it's been mutually beneficial for you and Road and the people who have a roadcaster right you know and there's there shouldn't be anything like there's nothing there's nothing gross about it.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Yeah because and that literally came from like I I kind of went on a rant in my most recent video about this because um but well because when I'm doing the mic comparisons I was like okay I would use the mics with the roadcaster but people get mad when I use the roadcaster because they think that you're like it's a $600 mixer of course a mic's gonna sound good so I did both and I did it in the focus right scarlet which is basically the most defotable one and then the roadcaster also but I explain in the video like the roadcaster is $600 the sound quality is the same. You're paying for like all these other features that it has that's why it's $600 and and people constantly send me messages going like it's too expensive it's too expensive $600 mixer. But when I made the first videos the reason I was so excited about it was because I had spent years piecing together these podcasting setups and knowing what a pain that it was and how ultimately it ended up being more expensive. So when this came out I was like this does this solve all of those problems. I'm super excited about it. I could not wait to make a video about it. I could not wait to like learn more about it. As soon as they updated firmware I'm like oh I want to make a video about the firmware update and like it was just that excitement that I just really did want to share this with people because I wanted people to know about it. And I think that's what people trusted when they watched it because it didn't feel like a commercial it felt like I'm watching a guy get real excited about this podcast recording.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Is that we are always on our phone right so it's like before there was only certain key touch points that companies can reach out to us to tell us about their product. But now it's like okay you can literally watch one roadcaster video and boom there's another one boom there's another one boom there's another one especially if it's like you have done multiple videos it's easy to think that oh everyone's got a roadcasters is a thing that I need to get and it's hard to remember like no no no there's a world that has no idea people don't even know it exists. Yeah most people exactly so you know and I think you know because I was thinking about I don't I don't want people to take it the wrong way when I say that like the people who are complaining about YouTube ads um are people who don't have YouTube premium I feel like they're the same people who are who are complaining that YouTube is even a thing. You know and I think anyone who's listening to this podcast knows how much we love YouTube. It's a tool okay there are there are bad things there are good things about it. There are ways you can use it for good there are ways that you can use it for bad but 100% the fact that we met the fact that we have you know we've built our businesses you left your career to do this like I mean it it every day I wake up I'm like I can't believe we get to do what we do and it's because of this platform. So I don't I happily pay YouTube premium you know take 40% of my super chat things because it's like you are a partner in my business I'm not paying rent right for a brick and mortar um you know spot on Main Street.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

This is what Luis and I were talking about last year. This is the rent exactly you can upload unlimited 4K you could stream in 4K forever indefinitely for free. I mean that's pretty nuts.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

And I I'm never gonna I'm never gonna get over that. So these people that are complaining are just like oh man okay if you're not complaining about this you're complaining about something else it's just trolls and they're loud.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

They're loud I know I know they're I know that they're loud but it's it's always in the back of your mind when you're making something you're like I don't I see people having these discussions where they're like making fun of YouTubers or criticizing this or that and then you're like oh I don't want to be lumped into that category for something also it's very I find these conversations interesting because I feel like what they're based off of are the big YouTubers.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

Yeah of course because that's where most of the views are being generated on YouTube. And so you know it's like I I find that very odd when that's not happening in our world.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Yeah well going back to Reddit that's the thing that's I've talked about this before but literally Doc works for Ecamm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Are we gonna think like hey he's marketing right now like it never even crosses our mind he's like he's literally it's his job to be a walking billboard.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

But he does it in a way that's like you know well first of all the product's great yeah it comes from the he got the job from enthusiasm because he was just super psyched about it and they were like you're doing a better job than we are can you just do this for it. Exactly so you know yeah but I mean that's where you see when he's like so this is why you use Ecamm instead of some other thing for this is yeah okay it's because what he uses but that's what I was I was saying um going back to to Reddit was um oftentimes one of the questions that pops up is like what underrated YouTube channels would you recommend? And it's always stuff like you should check out Mark Rober for like cool. Because they're 16 dude like I swear to God these these I don't know if they're I don't but I don't think I think it's a swath of people because I I think it's it's every age group but it is you'll hear like oh yeah this person they only have like two million subscribers whereas in my mind it's like they're like I don't think I'm subscribed to a channel that's over one million except for PewDiePie and Phil DeFranco.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Otherwise like everyone I watch and vlog after I don't know if he crossed a millionette.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

No I don't think so I don't think so everyone I watch is a sub a million Jenna Marbles who's been MIA but you know I think most of the channels I watch how about you I'm curious yeah most of them are probably in like somewhere in the hundreds of thousands and then there's like smaller channels because I always get excited about when I find like a small channel that I'm that that's like making an investment on like yes I hope they I hope they do it and you subscribe and and see if they they do well but um my my point was just that yeah people's perception of what's happening is skewed in in just you know the stuff that's the most popular is what they know.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

Like what that's not my experience on YouTube. Like it's not like you know oh I know I'll keep hammering this out I I know I pay for a YouTube premium but pay for a YouTube premium. Oh you can't because you're 12 and you don't have a credit card. Like well I I mean like I just I think it's mostly I I think it's mostly like kids. I mean I don't I don't know I know you read the you know you read the the like the wording the rhetoric there and maybe they they sound older.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

Well I mean I said it is on Reddit like there are I believe the average user is more like older our age because of just the platform that it is but and every once in a while you get people who are like I'm 76 years old I'm over here on Reddit um which is really cool. It was like the people who dove into the internet when you know 25 years ago when they were in their late 40s early 50s they got really excited about being online they've been ever since and now they're in their mid to late 70s and they're still just like I'm on Reddit um which is great. So it I think it is everybody so I think I think it's more like the the perception of stuff because if anything I would almost think younger people would be less critical because they're so used to it and the people that they admire are the ones doing these things. So if anything like they're used to it yeah it's like yeah if anything it's almost an ambition like you know I don't know in our day seeing like a a music artist you like show up on TRL which is just marketing like it's not like they got invited like oh you're you're you should come on our little show that we do in Times Square full of billboards it's like no your agent talk to MTV you booked a thing you showed up on TRL to promote your tour your album whatever uh and that it's a commercial here's what I think it comes down to okay is I don't think that you since this is about you as all things should be yes should worry about what people think like I don't think you should be worried about like am I coming off like a sleazy salesman am I coming off like these weird marketers.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

I think that it's great that you're like exploring these feelings but at the end of the day if you can rest easy knowing that you didn't compromise your integrity you didn't do anything that you feel like you know you have a weird feeling in your stomach or you've you know your gut's telling you oh man like maybe you should have done whatever like I think that's how you can navigate it's hard though I appreciate that and it's not like oh care what people think but when you're putting something out there like you know if if if there's a bunch of people who are like hey man like your video is bad your video is bad your video is bad eventually I'm gonna go like is my video bad like if one or two people say like this video sucks who's saying your video's bad I'm just saying example when you're creating something that goes out for an audience you you can't not pay attention to what they're thinking because uh they're an important part of the interaction like you can say that you're creating for yourself but cool if I'm creating for myself why do why can't I just put the video on my computer and watch it whenever I want why do I need to put it out there it's not like don't care about what people think but I think like you know going back to this whole marketing discussion it's like that's how I feel like you've done you've done it right this whole time. Well that's that's where we're like you're obviously doing a great job.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

That's where sorry that's where when I we heard Rob's thing in our mastermind YT mastermind dot com um that's marketing. That's marketing when he said marketing is not evil because I realized I had this moment in that where I had gone on whatever diatribe I went on.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

I still don't understand whether he's being sarcastic or not.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

No he's he's he the reason was I had gone on this thing not realizing he his job is sales. Yeah like so in a way I had just he had just paid money to be part of a group where then I spent five minutes sort of disparaging like his entire strategy of how he does things and that he's really good at so I think he was being playful but I also think he was also like it was the same thing when like Raphael says like Tom just let people give you money like if they you know like why are you stopping people from supporting you if they want to support you and I think it was that same sort of thing of like it was to me realizing that I had said something that was like it's like when you know somebody who's older says like all millennials are lazy and they're saying it to you on Facebook and you're like but you know I'm not I'm one of the people that you're talking about but for some reason in their mind it just doesn't equate as like you're one of the people I'm talking about it was kind of that same thing where I was like this is like marketing blah blah blah not realizing that like here's someone that I really like who does that for their living for decades. And it was just sort of like for some reason that really stuck out to me because I was like oh I if Rob showed up and tried to sell me I don't I'm not in the mood or not in the mood. I'm not in the market for you know uh medical imaging equipment.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

But like even Rob, you know, we got a care package that was like Disney blog pins. Oh yeah there's Disney blog sticker right here.

SPEAKER_01 39:57

Yeah Disney blog notebook pens like you know but I wouldn't if he's he's got domains I don't feel it doesn't feel scuzzy. It just feels like here's he's like it just really made me realize that like it's okay. Why?

SPEAKER_00 40:12

Because when marketing is done right no one talks about it. You don't even realize it's happening now is that bad marketing oh you'll hear you'll never stop hearing about but like good marketing is it's an experience you're having a great time there's nothing to complain about.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

Right. Well it's like when people said the Lego movie was just a big ad for Lego and I was like yeah but it was great. It's also a great movie so if I can watch a great movie that's amazing that people genuinely put artistic skill into and then it makes sense that you would make Lego products based on the movie because it's it makes sense so then it's a win for them but the movie itself came out of the like homegrown community of stop motion Lego filmmakers so it wasn't like just a random thing like here's the you know weird action figure movie it was like no there's a community of people who've been making Lego movies forever and now we did a big budget version of that which is super interesting to see like it worked it it was marketing and it was a sales force for Lego but who cares like I didn't I didn't bother me. Yeah like so you it's one of my favorite rather would you rather not have had the movie like right it's literally one of my favorite movies in the world is that one um and I think this is where now I'm can I this there's no right answer here but when we I agree with what you said when marketing is done well you don't notice at all. I think that goes with a lot of things you watch a video that's edited really well you're not gonna notice the edits.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

But you watch a video that's edited poorly you're gonna be like why why did your shirt change such a sudden yeah the people will go into the comments and tell you everything that's wrong on it.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

But when you're and I I noticed this for years doing critiques with students where the best projects would have sometimes the least amount of feedback at least technically because you didn't even notice it you didn't notice that we saw a reaction shot while we heard someone else's dialogue which is a very advanced editing thing for a high school student to do but it was there and it just felt so natural that no one even noticed it. And I think you're right like good marketing is the same thing. Scares me because I feel like if that's wielded intentional if that's wielded on purpose with bad manipulative intentions behind it, but maybe by default then it wouldn't be good marketing because you would it's just like Timesquare.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Like no one thinks it's just Billboard City because it's cool. You know like I think it's cool and there's nothing wrong with that. Like there shouldn't be like oh my God they're all just trying to take my money like it all comes down to you have the power of choice. Okay like you can choose to put your phone away watch a different you don't have to go down the roadcast a rabbit hole to make you think that the world like everyone's got one. No tur go jump into like you know anime YouTube or whatever and watch something totally different. Right right you know and it's it's you don't you don't have to expose yourself to these things. So I I find it silly to blame people who are just trying to do their best for like what you're consuming. Like just turn it's like the same people who are like why are you gonna do this video? Just leave man just why are you watching this video? Unsubscribe and thank you next like I are you seriously you're gonna take the time to complain about this right now?

SPEAKER_01 43:32

Bro it's I mean I don't know ultimately yes you're right and I think it's sales marketing whatever you want to call it is such a broad thing there's good examples bad examples positive outcomes negative outcomes it kind of is what you make it. For me the reason I wanted to like share this was just the the number one thing that I seem to get asked at the end of like every time on someone's podcast or stream is they go like what what advice would you give to someone just starting out what's something You wish you would have known sooner. Like, I can't even count how many times that question has popped up. And for me, it always comes down to like, I wish I had been strategic sooner. Like, I spent the whole first year actively like blocking any kind of opportunity, and then sort of dip my toes in like affiliate stuff, and then only literally now am like asking a company, like, hey, would you want to sponsor a video? Which they were like, Yeah, sure, no problem. And you know, we already have an existing relationship, so it was a very easy, like, it's a very easy thing. There's trust, there's an actual relationship there. And part of me is like I always say, like, I kind of wish I would have done that sooner, but I don't know that I could. It's just sort of looking back on that journey of going from literally, my channel had a thing in its description that said, This is not a source of income. Like, I have a full-time job, I'm not interested in earning revenue from this, to this is my full-time job, and things are a little slow this month, so let me see if I can get a sponsored video. Very different. Like, can it and I'm proud of you. Well, that's why I wanted to talk to you about it. Because I was like, I feel like this is, you know, and being able to do that without selling selling your soul, you know. Like, we've we've talked about friends who've turned down five-figure deals.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

There should be a sense of pride, and like, you know, you're an artist at the end of the day, and they're like, you're a professional one.

SPEAKER_01 45:25

What I make is art.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

Um, so I have a funny, this is like not related to YouTube, but it's a very interesting marketing story. I forgot where I read it, but you know, Febreze.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

I yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

Okay, so Fabrize is an actual like scientific product that I don't know how it works, but it actually does stick to scents in the air and like makes it go. Deactivates. Yeah, like it's an actual product that was new when it came on to market. Which now we're like, you know, I actually don't like Fabriz because I maybe I've always gotten the scented ones and I hate the lingering smell.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

Um, but you know, especially if you have you're a mom of like four kids and you let me tell you about being a ninth grade English teacher in a portable classroom and then you have freshmen after lunch.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

That's so gross.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

I had a I had a cabinet full of Fabriz. And then kids would always be like, What does it smell like Febreze in here? So it doesn't smell.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

Yeah, like the product is good. It does something, inarguably, it's good. Yes. Well, when they first brought it to market, no one cared. And they they would say, like, no, no, no, no, seriously, it works. Like, look, look. And everyone's like, Yeah, and it just still never took. Oh, this is why I read it. I read it in um The Power of Habit, Charles DuV.

SPEAKER_02 46:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

Uh, and then what they did was I think they I think what they did was they started to come out with commercials where a mom would be like vacuuming the living room, and then just like you floss your teeth like right after you brush your teeth, it's just like the next step. You after you vacuum your living room, you spray your Febreze. And it was just like the habit that they started to show, there was always like a vacuum, and that's when it took on. Was that it just became habitual? It became like the habit that you're you're not done cleaning until you do the final step of Febreze. Same product, say nothing changed, but it was just the marketing of like let's make this Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

I mean, bringing it back to YouTube, that's when there's a video that doesn't do well and you change the thumbnail and suddenly it takes off, it's kind of the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 47:35

So anyway.

SPEAKER_01 47:36

I like that story. Um, but yeah, and that and that's a good example. There's nothing like it's not a uh say maleficent. It's not a malicious product.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

I my point in bringing that story is like marketing, it's it's very it's psychology, it's consumer behavior, it's like there's so much research that goes into like even if your product is good, especially back then, you know. I think now, you know, the way that I would handle marketing from a branding standpoint, like from a company standpoint, is to find all the influencers. I don't care, you know huge YouTubers, micro influencers, whatever you call them, but people who have the loyal audience where it's like there's already a trust factor with the audience, the community, and you just say, like, you know, what everyone's doing. Here's my product. We think that it would be in line with your body da. Like, I think that's the way to go. And that's hard when like you're speaking to the masses through a television set, you've got a 30-second spot, and you know, how do you even yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

It's I mean, it's funny because I just yesterday I was watching that video from Drew Gooden, who is one of the channels I subscribe to that has several million subscribers, but it was where he bought every for a month, he just bought all the weird stuff that was advertised to him uh and then got it, and it's just like is this garbage or not? I think he gave himself a budget of like a thousand dollars to spend on stuff. And it it is crazy to see the marketing because one of the things was just a backpack, which is so crazy because literally this was a YouTube channel that I made.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

Ad Scene On.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

Oh, it was. Yes, it was.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

I started a YouTube channel, like I don't know, forgot about that two years ago called ads scene on, and I thought it was so clever because it's like ad seen on TV, but it's ads seen on Instagram, and I wanted to like get all the Instagram products that I saw because I was buying like every what so I have a problem, not so much of a problem anymore, but I have insomnia like every month basically. And what I do is I go on my phone and I start buying like impulsive buys on Instagram.

SPEAKER_01 49:42

Yeah, like 2 a.m.

SPEAKER_00 49:43

Yeah, and then like there'd just be another package, and Tom's like, you know, the same way like there's a new camera tech thing. Yeah for me, it was just like here's a little doo-diddy knickknack thing.

SPEAKER_02 49:53

Dooddy.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

Doodad. And like half the stuff I bought. I mean, they were bad. Like was at the water bottle. That's what I was thinking of.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

The dog wire bottle is a good one.

SPEAKER_00 50:06

Um I got this phone case that's supposed to like stick to anything, but I've never used it. I it works. I just I don't know, like I remember that one.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

It also like sticks to everything though, like in your pocket and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:19

Um, but it's and that's it's a good idea. And what's funny is like you know, some of the stuff that he buys, like he'll get him, he's like, This is actually pretty good. I'm not gonna lie, but a lot of it is like garbage or overpriced, but you see how it's advertised. And the example that stuck out to me was one of the things he bought was a backpack, and it's like he's like, it's very hard to advertise a product that like already exists, and it's not a it wasn't a it was a colorful backpack, it wasn't like anything crazy, and like the ad was some really hip looking dude, you know, very Gen Z millennial on the cusp of everything, and he's like, This has a giant pocket, and there's a mesh thing here. And Drew of the video was like, so it's a backpack with a big pocket and a smaller pocket. Like, that is every backpack ever, and it's $140 or something. So um it my point was just sort of like like the marketing of those things. There was another thing, it was like a belt company where they were using stuff like space age webbing, blah blah blah. It's like this doesn't mean anything.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

Like well, so like this is a funny story. So back in my days when I didn't know any better, okay. I I because so Tom is great because he he has been the one who is like, I think because you were so foot in this foot in the ground of like I refuse to let this be a paid thing, that like you know, when companies reached out to you, you were just like, No, no, no, no, no, no. You didn't even give them the time of day. For me, it's like I didn't know any better. And I had someone, a skateboard company, reach out to me and asked to sponsor a video.

SPEAKER_01 51:50

Um this was early on.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

Well, this is because of boosted boards, yeah. So it wasn't boosted because I just didn't have the reach on my channel for that. But you know, they liked my boosted board videos and they were like, we have an electric skateboard, we want to, you know, do something with that. They sponsored a video, they sent me their their uh skateboard for free. But what they also asked was for me to be like a face of the brand, and it's because like I, you know, purple hair snack back. I was like 20 pounds lighter back then. I was skating on the you know, beach boardwalk. California, yeah. Yeah, there's palm trees in the back, like there's you know, yes, just Southern California lifestyle, influencer, yeah. Like I looked apart and you know, that made me it was very weird. It was weird to have that opportunity presented because of it it's like I don't know, like I don't even know how to navigate that.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

Yeah, like how how do you and that I mean you're I said no.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

Well, the reason why I said no is because I was like I was like, wait, so they can use my pictures like in perpetuity. So like 20 years from now they're still using my my face, and that's when I was like, okay, that means I need a contract. And then it just got too hard, so I was like, forget it.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

Yeah, and it's not worth it and ultimately you're like, but I like boosted boards anyway, so like can I not be seen on a you know? It was like, what was it Britney Spears who was the Pepsi thing that she was drinking a Coke and it was a big controversy? Yeah, it's like it's like that kind of a thing, you know. All the people who you see this pop up all the time, but they talk about like this new Android thing or blah blah blah, and on their tweet it says sent Twitter by iPhone or whatever, and it's like guys, come on. Tighten it up a little bit. Um, but yeah, it's it's uh it's a weird world to navigate.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

You know who has a show about marketing trends like that are like super relevant? Like, you know how we talk about creator news in the past week sometimes? Sure. This channel talks about marketing stuff that happened in the past week. It's Rich's channel. Big promotions.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

Oh, are you promoting Rich Graham?

SPEAKER_00 53:59

He's in our just create more community, justcreate more.com. Join us. We're a community of passionate and dedicated YouTube creators.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

This whole episode was just to do that link, share. Don't talk like that. Oh my god. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Uh that maybe that weird voice is a sign that we have reached the end of the episode. But I just wanted to share, like, I wanted to share with you the revelation I have that marketing is not inherently evil, it is a tool, and it's whether it's used for good or bad, all depends on how you use it. And if you're somebody who creates something and puts something out there online, there's absolutely nothing wrong with getting paid and and having partners as long as you do just have your, you know, your principles that you stick to and just let that guide you, and then it's completely okay. And I'm telling myself that as much as I'm telling you that. But that to me, mentally and emotionally was a very big leap from where things were a couple years ago.

SPEAKER_00 54:56

So yeah, congrats. Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 55:00

And thank you for for letting me pull you in to be a part of this episode unexpectedly in the morning. So, and thank you, uh, everybody who's listening and or watching. If you want to get the video versions and and see our beautiful faces, that's uh marketing, you can be a patreon.com slash Tom Buck or YouTube channel member, and you get the video versions of the podcast. And if you have something that you would like to add, I have a feeling uh there are things we have said throughout this episode where opinions might have popped up. If you want to share that, whether it's text, voice, or video, uh, you can send an email to Tom at enthusiasmproject.com, and I can bring that in in next week's episode. So thank you so much for listening. Always appreciate it. I hope you have a safe, happy, healthy, fun rest of your day, and we will see you next time.

SPEAKER_00 55:44

Bye.